Wakeskate Judging.
After watching more and more wakeskate comps and listening to the guys competing in them it is becoming apparent that there needs attention spent on a new style of judging to cater for a style of wakeskating that emulates skateboarding in particular "street skating " using obstacles not unlike stairs, hand rails, drops, tables,ramps, etc.With more and more wakeboarders trying wakeskating and enjoying the change it seems to bring a style of riding that can look dynamic but sometimes lacks the technique or ability necessary to perform some of the more advanced tricks done by progressive Skaters .After discussing ideas with a few guys I would like to open a discussion as to help direct judging competitions that include obstacles to keep within a criteria and direction that most of the skaters I talk with, would like to see maintained.In saying this a few ideas I would like people to think about is, any obstacle that has been ollied onto receives double points as it is a similar move to that of street skating, and usually leads to tricks like , 270 back side press, or shoves, big spins etc,because when the judging is done it seems that things like 720 spins rate higher as they look more outlandish .This is only one suggestion to get ideas flowing .THIS IS NOT A STIR!!!!! This post is ment to push the sport forward, as the competitions that have been organised have had great intentions but is up to skaters to take the opportunity and drive forward positively not loose heart and not compete!
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matt Rodgers on -
I like the idea of judging a whole run based off 3 separate categories eg.
over all impression 60%
style intensity 20%
technical difficulty 20% (covers the whole ollie on/ ride on thing)
Then give each category a score out of 10 and times each one by the percentage its worth and your left with an overall score right?
And the whole judging flat water tricks only between the last 2 towers at a cable comp? shouldn't we allow for riders to put together lines with both the rails and the flat water, I thought that was the whole beauty of wakeskating haha
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Permalink Reply by munners on -
Yeah Dipple good post man. This is an issue I have discussed with a few skaters - being quite new to the sport myself I am all ears to suggestions from riders, and what they want to see. I agree 100% with the direction you are mentioning - the thing I love most about wakeskating is the skateboarding influence - The fact that I grew up skating is what brought me to the sport.. I also take MRods point about flat-water tricks between the last 2 towers in a cable comp.
I'm currently involved in only one wakeskate competition, but with almost a full year between now and the next WWW, I am definitely keen to hear what people want to see. I know some people feel quite strongly about this topic, but bear in mind that us organisers are doing the best we can - without your input and practical suggestions nothing can change for the better.
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Permalink Reply by matt edwards on -
sounds pretty good to me, but yeah like steve said ollie ons to rails and sliders surely must score higher as apossed to riding on, wev all seen it, in a comp or something u see alot of wakeboarders judging and they see a ride on 720 spin on a box and think thats "so sick" and would probably score higher then a ollie on back lipslide cause they dont relise how hard it is. and STYLE is a massive factor into things like a kickflip with a massive ass drag around the corner would score the same as a perfect kickflip in most comps. im curious to see how this boat comp gets judged that is coming up soon. id like to see it scored by flat water tricks and w2w tricks and style.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Dipple on -
Great to see some thought put into this guys and all good ideas ,just keep in mind that the organisers can organise the format of riding any way they want,if it is a rail jam then so be it, even if there is tricks only between two towers for that particular competition don't see too much drama ,not ideal but still very workable ,the biggest problem I see is that the big three are not being transferred from water to paper properly,even at world competitions this is a problem a "massive ollied on boned out back side tail slide 'turns into a ollie on tail slide when written down where a 720 is a 720, what would win out on paper?To me a 720 but in reality it should be the former.this to me is the thing that needs to be looked at .I know there is no easy solution but needs to be addressed now as I know a couple of riders who felt a little under judged and are deciding not to compete any more.I know wakeskating is defiantly not all about comps, I love the sport for all its freedom and personal inspiration but comps give credibility to potential sponsors and it is the sponsors that one day will take the sport to a greater audience and good skaters will get the respect they have earnt and deserve.
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Permalink Reply by Zip on -
i agree with everything that has been said by all of you so far
i love that we can craft the way wakeskating will be in Australia
Style, ollie on, clean vs sketchy, switch
so much to discuss haha
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Permalink Reply by munners on
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Seem to be hearing a bit about this lately. Whilst I myself only have somewhat of an opinion in one wakeskate event a year, I am determined to take on board the input of the wakeskaters. The reason I run the events I do is because I love wakeskating. I love hanging with other skaters. We are the industry and therefore we can shape the industry, but unless people give us some input (like that above, in which some really good points have been made) nothing will change. I myself can't speak for any other wakeskate events or event organisers, but keep in touch with me when I'm involved and I'll always listen.
Might just stick to running jams.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Rodgers on
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stair gap set up under the go ride at bli bli anyone? plus a tinny comp section on that lake and a cable comp?
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Permalink Reply by G.K.D. on -
I'm not really into the whole comp thing, apart from the fact it's a good chance for me to socialise with & watch a heap of good skaters ride in the one spot. Personally I think comps lean more towards product promotion & self promotion rather than promoting & growing the sport. Maybe if I was any good I would look at it a bit differently haha.
I also understand that these events need the help of sponsor's to help cover costs & entice rides to make the effort to travel to the different locations of the comps, but It seems to also effect the results of judging (I don’t know whether I’m looking to deep into it or from the right angle haha).
At the comps I've been to, skaters that IMO are way better to watch because they have a certain fluidity & stile, don't always seam to place well. Variations of tricks seem to be missed, overlooked or most often misunderstood by the judges. Unless riders & spectators that love & can appreciate the technical complexities of wakeskating feel that the skills, style & bag of tricks of competitor’s are being appreciated & recognized by the judges of these events, one by one wakeskaters are going to walk away from the whole comp seen.
As far as the rail jams go, it’s a hard call. I think the whole structure of the rail comps for wateskater’s needs to be looked at. The way it’s run at the moment, if you’re competing in a "Rail Jam" you have to expect the rails to be judged highly over flat water tricks because “wakeskating” is run off the back of how the “wakeboarding” is based & judged.
Wakeskating, as I’m sure you would all agree, needs to be run & judged as it’s own individual branch of water sports. Not as something you do when your not wakeboarding, as it seems to be the case at present.
Then if we do mix it up and even out the judging between rail & flat-water tricks there is a number of points that need to be looked at: ollie-on’s, stile, hitting things switched, other variations and also should a ridder that does 3 flat-water tricks win over a rider that hits 3 rails ? All important points IMO that should be in the minds of judges, then translate to points on the board.
I'd also prefer to see flat water tricks be allowed & judged around the entire cable. Not just between the last two tower's.
How good would it be to watch riders hit a rail then throw a flat water trick then hit another rail?
It’s as if the organizer's & judges have thrown it into the event to keep skaters happy. To me, it's also seems a bit of a soft option to ride around the cable, throw a flat water trick on the last straight & then if you fall you can just run straight to the dock & go again. Where as a rider that falls doing a trick over or between a rail or kicker has to run all the way around the lake to get back to the dock.
Sorry for the long rant but I thought I’d throw my two bob’s worth in.
Not that it’ll really effect me because I’m way past the even thinking about competing in any event unless they run an old, lame ass wakeskaters division.
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Permalink Reply by Niall Ryan on -
Heres my 2 cents..
So over the past few years ive spent a fair bit of time judging wakeboard boat comps over here in Perth and similar issues have come up. Now im not trying to compare this to wakeboarding at all but i think a similar format may and could work (with some tweaking). The runs are judged on three categories - intensity, composition and execution. The riders are given a score out of 10, with the first rider of the heat recieving a base score of around 5 or so for each category unless they clearly deserve more or less. This allows for a fairly even distribution for results over the rest of the riders. Say if a rider does a massive tweaked out bs tailgrab into the flats the judge would write that down and mark the trick (either a tick or keep it in mind for discussion between the judges at the end). So with this format somebody who throws down a sick pass can be rewarded instead of just seeing on paper *3 shuv*,
INTENSITY - going huge on everything, and doing multiple tricks in a pass (not just riding for 200 meters then doing a shuv).
COMPOSITION - putting in a mix of tricks - flat water - shuvs, kickflips, bigspins ollie 3's etc... AND rails - shuvs on and off, ollie ons, 270's off etc. Aswell as wake to wake variations if its a boat comps (this includes hitting the wake toeside, heelside and switch)
EXECUTION - This category pretty much just outlines how clean everything was landed and how well the tricks were done.
With something like this I think it will allow the rider to get recognition for popping his/her sh$t, and scoring higher than those who don't in the intensity category. For composition its going to reward the riders for doing a wide range of tricks (not just a fs 720 over a rail over and over again), this includes flat water tricks and will reward those who do a wide range of these, rail variations (inc ollie on and off) and wake to wake stuff. Execution is going reward those who don't sketch out there tricks and make everything look steezy...
I could probably keep going, but let us know your thoughts. Cheers
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Permalink Reply by G.K.D. on
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I've noticed Liquid Force Australia has posted on wake.com.au & basically said they would give wakeskater's the time slot in the rail jams, run it, judge it and even commentate on it.
So......... WE HAVE THE POWER...... lets do something with it!!!!!.
Wakeskating in Australia can be what YOU want it to be.
As munners said " We are the industry" .
Liquid Force Australia. said:Hey guys we know the wakeskate judging is not perfect at the rail jams - and yes it is judged by parents/riders/wakeboarders, basically whoever is willing to do the job - and believe me they are sometimes VERY hard to find!!!!!! Last 2 rail jam events we have not been able to find even ONE person on the bank who is willing to be a flatwater wakeskate judge
Furthermore this year there is hardly any skaters entering
If this is because of a dissatisfaction with the judging we hear you
I am hereby making you this invitation - get the wakeskating crowd together, you devise your own rules, you get your own judges organised, you make the event whatever you want - within our system, carriers must be full, 5-6 lap heats and finals, allow whatever type of tricks you guys want, flatwater or obstacle or kicker - and devise where you want them. I am willing to give you the allotment of time that we have and you make it exactly what you want!!!
NOW lets here your comments and who would attend and who could bring judges etc knowledgable enough to do it.
After all its YOUR event, without you guys there is no event. So do you want the event??????
I like this idea, we could get excited about it
You can even have your own commentator if you can supply one so they can accurately call the tricks
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Permalink Reply by munners on
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Alright heres our chance. LF has proposed that we can have as much input as we want on this. I will email Mick and make him aware of this post so we can make things happen. From the LF website I can see that the remaining Rail Jams are:
Cairns - Nov 6th
Logan - Dec 5th
Penrith - Dec 18th
Penrith - Feb 5th
Bli Bli - Feb 19th
Cairns is on in 3 days so I can't see that we could do much for that, but with 4 comps following (and a decent amount of skaters in all 3 locations) there's no reason we can't make it happen.
Throw your input below.. A few good points have already been made that we can factor in and make sure are used, but if you have an opinion and don't share it now it can't be implemented.
On a final note, I'd love to see the skaters turn out to these events. The organisers are obviously willing to do what it takes to make the wakeskate division credible but if we don't participate there's no point bringing it up in the first place.
If you can't make it to Cairns this weekend do what you can to get to Logan on the 5th Dec and then Penrith on the 18th Dec.
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